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Protestants and Radicals – Martin Bucer's Debate with Hessian Anabaptists (1538)

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(Butzer) That is no logical sequence. The word has been preached for a long time; if there is no improvement there, then it is no word of God. At the end of the 4th book of Kings (II Chron. 36:15): “I have ever sent prophets and they worked among you.” And when he says he has not yet found one, etc., then he should reflect that he should not judge; he has known without doubt many people, and many have sealed their confession with their blood, and he could not know what each does for good in another land. Therefore it is very frivolous of him when he says that he hasn’t found one.

Leonhard: As to the charge that I let fall a judgment that I shouldn’t. I say: What God’s word judges, that we do not judge, yet we use the word according to his command. Therefore when one judges it is not a judicial sentence.

(Butzer) Asked if it is a good line of reasoning [to say] the people are not converted by the word, therefore it is not God’s word.

(Leonhard) He wished to hold to the clear evidence. Christ doesn’t let himself be found in the higher schools.

(Butzer) Said, Leonhard won’t give God the praise, that the line of reasoning wasn’t sound. Then he turned to the audience and said, Christ did preach in the higher schools, for he was in the synagogues and preached to all creatures. But the little common folk have come to hold it against the word – [an attitude] one finds among princes and peasants and in other places; and they know within them and not from the Word of God – that the specialists, from them the teaching of Christ is hidden; to them, moreover, the lowest people are equal.

Leonhard: Christ says: “The tree is known by its fruit,” Matthew 12:33, 34. The mouth flows over with what the heart is full; that one can then judge. Therefore they cannot establish that they are sent, for they show no good fruit.

Butzer: How can such a logical line be sound: It is a bad tree for I have seen no good fruit from it! What then if the tree were in Calcutta and I am here and see no good fruit on the tree, does that mean therefore it doesn’t have any? He, Leonhard, has not seen anyone. Therefore, he judges frivolously. He prayed that they should judge what they see and not then act as though they were equal to God. For it was for that that God cast the angels from heaven.

(Leonhard) They have heard from his brother that they wanted to do that good which they recognize and acknowledge. But the preachers were the first to cite his brother before the government and have claimed he was rebellious. He never read that of any apostles or prophets, for God was a God of peace.

(Butzer) He should have held his judgment that no fruit appears in our church, for he lied when he said that he had kept it a secret. We grant: whatever preacher persecutes a good man doesn’t do right. But now the Anabaptists are prosecuted not because they aren’t pious but because they cause the church great mischief and damage. The one who damages his neighbor isn’t pious; yet more impious is he who would withdraw from him the doctrine of God and the sacraments, as you and yours do, which causes the people the most severe damage, namely, in religion; these are the most impious of all, even if they even drink no wine, eat no flesh, love all austerity, always prayed and make use of everything that seems spiritual. This is also Satan’s style and usage, that he introduces false religion with pretended austerity of life, as also happened with the false prophets about whom Paul complained in Colossians 2:16 ff. This was also evidenced by the Manichees and others who ravaged the holy religion most severely. The preachers call no one unjustly to prosecution. But they preach, as Paul taught them (Romans 13:4), that the government doesn’t carry the sword for nothing but brings fear to all who do evil and therefore the greatest fear to those who do the most grievous wrong, to damage holy religion. And if the Anabaptists suffer as wrong doers, God will have no wrong so severely punished as blasphemy. And they haven’t yet given evidence that our church or preachers are a bad tree. Christ drove the people out of the temple who damaged religion.

Leonhard: You must admit that from the beginning the pious have never persecuted the impious.

Butzer: That I deny, for who drove Lucifer from heaven except Piety in heaven. Note: Paul strongly drove the false apostles.

Leonhard asked: Did Paul persecute the others?

Butzer: Yes, and that with true Godly fervor, for the false apostles persecuted them with a false, devilish fervor.

(Leonhard) Where did Jacob persecute his brother Esau? But Cain persecuted his brother Abel for the sake of the sacrifice and Esau, Jacob. And so it is yet today, etc.

Butzer: That the wicked persecute the good, we admit; but that the pious also have driven the wicked, all Scriptures shows. What die Christ do in the temple, what die Peter do with Ananias (Acts 5)?

On the Following Friday

Leonhard: Yesterday I put questions, as you have heard. Now I can’t criticize your talk; and if they also are ready to apply it in practice, then it pleases him indeed; but it isn’t sufficient until they set to work to build the temple, for he and his co-believers want to help with it. And they have given proper cause to have separated from us and they pray that patience may be shown them; let the light shine and don’t chop down the tree because it stands in blood.

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