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Protestants and Radicals – Martin Bucer's Debate with Hessian Anabaptists (1538)

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(Jörg?) That’s what the church says, but asked if then the one who had a better understanding of the matter shouldn’t separate from them when they didn’t do what was Christian?

(Butzer) To punish and warn whoever doesn’t walk the right path, and to shun all evil, is not forbidden. But to separate oneself, that is wrong.

(Jörg) Paul says (Gal. 5:21): “The wicked shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.” And now when they do evil shouldn’t he go apart from them, that perhaps there may be some who would improve themselves?

(Butzer) The wicked who harden in it will not inherit, etc. But that all who are of Marburg are wicked, that he can’t believe. Said again, he had no proof text.

(Jörg) He had authorization all through the Bible to shun evil.

(Butzer) Conceded, to avoid evil. But when he has admonished someone, he has no proof text that he should separate from him as long as the church doesn’t expel them.

(Jörg) He was convinced from the very beginning that the preachers don’t have the Word; he has shunned them and evil.

(Butzer) Repeated his request that he be shown the proof text for his shunning.

(Jörg) Said this church was presented to him as a Christian church. Asked if it was still a Christian church after it recognized one’s sin and didn’t expel them.

(Butzer) Should give proof text for his shunning. Wherever there is a church which gladly hears God’s Word, that is a Christian church. And where it doesn’t expel the sinner, he has no ground to shun them. Where there are believing people and they have a preacher and other leaders, even if they are found to be negligent to discipline a person for something disruptive, no other individual shall take it on himself to shun or expel them whom such a church hasn’t banned.

(Jörg) Believed [the discussion] should have been closed earlier and his answer remained: if it were the church of Christ then it would have gone ahead with such an understanding; since it hasn’t done it, it is no believing church and he won’t accept it unless he is convinced by the Bible itself.

(Butzer) Spoke to those standing about; they have heard this talk and he will also finish off and have the decision put to the church of Christ.

[ . . . ]

On the following Thursday Butzer first recapitulated the doings of the day before. And he asked Jorg if he conceded it to be a church where they believe in the Word of God. Answer: those who commit themselves to the truth and stand obediently in Christ, them he respects as a church.

(Butzer) Here, too, they are agreed that there have always been easy livers and sinners in the church. But when they aren’t cited they are not to be banned. Even after the sending of the Holy Spirit the eleven apostles had many shortcomings; yet their heart was loyal to God. And today, too, even among the most saintly, not to speak of the weak and stupid, much error and inadequacy are found in the midst of the true faith and fellowship of the church.

(Jörg) Asked if he thought the church from which he (Jorg) had separated himself was a Christian church.

(Butzer) He would let specific people answer what had to do with specific people; and the church at Aldendorf is to improve whatever is bad. Whoever won’t hear the church shall be expelled. And in our church it is to be handled and preached as stated in the confession given the Emperor. But if there is error and shortcoming in doctrine and sacraments, let Jorg point it out.

(Jörg) Would like to know if the church in Aldendorf is the church of which Matthew 18 was written.

(Butzer) Where teaching is Christian, there is a church – here in Marburg, in Aldendorf, and in the whole land of Hessen the same is built up. But if there are tares in the midst, they must be borne with until the harvest unless they become so prominent that they can be rooted out advantageously and without danger to the wheat; all of which must always be done according to the oft-cited ordinance of Christ.

(Jörg) Asked, when the Word is there and not the power, if he still held the church at Aldendorf to be such a church? He would convince them that they have behaved and acted against the Word.

(Butzer) Let us hear that; go ahead and point out the deficiency.

(Jörg) He complained of the leaders, the teachers, as he had said yesterday, on usury and the ban. But what happened to him was like a master swordsman who finds another at his post and his sword and authority are taken from him. Three and a half years ago they took their books away from them and threw them into darkness. But they still have comfort in their hearts. They desired that they be given a Bible, as they should be treated by the church.

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